Curse

Squishy ftw · Jun 13, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I don't see how a bar with 6 skills is better than one with 8 skills. Because you can just disable some skills and manage them yourself?

Tearz1993 · Jun 13, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantei

Channeling
LoD
Healing Whisper
Healing Ribbon
Cure Hex
Healing Breeze

Leech Signet
Orison Of Healing / Patient Spirit

Shantei · Jun 13, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

You see. Your'e ALL missing the point of efficieny and how heroes will utilise any skill, no matter what, which can cause energy drops for no decent reason.

Shaz · Jun 13, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Oh really? i would have never guessed you PvP

. But ok I'm done, keep doing what you're doing, I'd advise other to not do that though. Take Xx Sorin xX advice instead, it's a good one.

Shantei · Jun 13, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Stillll missing the point Shaz..

I'd love to see you PvP btw. Would be interesting.

Batou of Nine · Jun 13, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantei

Thank you!

It does work great I find!

Just because you have 8 slots doesn't mean you need 8 slots. Although I'm sure some people find 'I wish I had more skill slots' and if so, you really should rethink your build ^^

Also why henchman don't have all skills slots filled, to make them as efficient and general as possible maybe...

Using only a few skill slots on hero bars used to be very common when they were first introduced. For a while after Heroes were introduced, everyone noticed their AI was not very intuitive. With full bars they would only use the same 3-4 skills over and over, hardly ever, if ever using the others.

Often this would also result in skill spamming of the higher energy skills which caused them to drain themselves of energy and thus becoming useless within the first 5 seconds of a fight. This was why it used to be common to limit the Hero skill bars to only a few skills...

That was then. Now, after the AI has been updated, tweaked and improved there is simply no need to limit the bar to only a few skills. They do indeed lack the ability of discernment and will never match a human's (or at least most people's, lol) intelligence level in terms of skill usage.

However, as their AI stands now. They are much better at managing skills, taking advantage of the full bar and often at an efficient pace. Giving heroes a simple 1 or 2 energy mangement skills in their bar is all that you need. Enemy target requiring, interrupt requiring, etc... all types of e-management are used well by heros.

If i ever find a situation where certain enemy curses, interrupts, defenses are causing a hero to use skills wrong or wastefully, i simply disable the skill till we move on.

Why limit their usefulness?
Simply no reason not to load up a Heroes bar to max. Period.

my 2 cents, cheers

Shantei · Jun 13, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

Using only a few skill slots on hero bars used to be very common when they were first introduced. For a while after Heroes were introduced, everyone noticed their AI was not very intuitive. With full bars they would only use the same 3-4 skills over and over, hardly ever, if ever using the others.

Often this would also result in skill spamming of the higher energy skills which caused them to drain themselves of energy and thus becoming useless within the first 5 seconds of a fight. This was why it used to be common to limit the Hero skill bars to only a few skills...

That was then. Now, after the AI has been updated, tweaked and improved there is simply no need to limit the bar to only a few skills. They do indeed lack the ability of discernment and will never match a human's (or at least most people's, lol) intelligence level in terms of skill usage.

However, as their AI stands now. They are much better at managing skills, taking advantage of the full bar and often at an efficient pace. Giving heroes a simple 1 or 2 energy mangement skills in their bar is all that you need. Enemy target requiring, interrupt requiring, etc... all types of e-management are used well by heros.

If i ever find a situation where certain enemy curses, interrupts, defenses are causing a hero to use skills wrong or wastefully, i simply disable the skill till we move on.

Why limit their usefulness?
Simply no reason not to load up a Heroes bar to max. Period.

my 2 cents, cheers

But you're still missing the point of how heroes utilise their skills according to their own AI. Which might no necessarily be your own perspective of the build. Therefore filling the skills slots which you might think be good may actually be quite inefficient.

But yes, e-management is always important.

aB- · Jun 13, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I usually just fill every open slot with some quick 1/4 second cast time interrupts that give energy. Skills such as power drain or leech signet. Heros can interrupt very well.

Shaz · Jun 13, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantei

Stillll missing the point Shaz..

I'd love to see you PvP btw. Would be interesting.

lol, was going to go, but just couldn't resist this one.

I'm certainly no top GvG player, but I think I know enough about PvP or just GW in general, to know that that's a bad build that you posted, off of the top of the head or not.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 13, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

You don't need to be a pro PvPer to know that Ribbon and Breeze are terribaed skills.

As for a hero monk?

[[email protected]]
[dwaynas [email protected]]
[cure [email protected]]
[dismiss [email protected]] (disabled)
[protective [email protected]] (disabled)
[[email protected]] (disabled)
[shield of [email protected]]
... optional

12+1+1 Healing
9+1 prot
9+1 divine

... or something like that is what I stick on heroes. They're ok with SoA, bad with conditional removal, and bad with big prots - I cast them myself to stop shit blowing up in HM. The other stuff is simply the most efficient red-bars-go-up crap in the game, better than Ribbon and Breeze (lol)

Batou of Nine · Jun 13, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantei

But you're still missing the point of how heroes utilise their skills according to their own AI. Which might no necessarily be your own perspective of the build. Therefore filling the skills slots which you might think be good may actually be quite inefficient.

But yes, e-management is always important.

Bolded, kinda outplays your own argument.

How am i missing the point? I even explained to you the origins of using less then 8 skills on a Hero. Then explained why it is no longer necessary. Efficiency according to having less skills is not efficient.

First of all, any Hero bar without at least a small form of e-managment will drain them to begin with, 6 or 8 skills. Having 1-2 second recharge, spammable skills ofc would drain them no matter how big their bar is. Their intelligence will treat both bars the exact same way.

Due to that, adding in 1 or 2 e-management skills will not only allow them to last longer, but also help them recover more quickly from inevitable energy drains/interrupts/etc.

Less skills =/= efficiency.
Skill & build synergy = efficiency.

cheers.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

... or something like that is what I stick on heroes. They're ok with SoA, bad with conditional removal, and bad with big prots - I cast them myself to stop shit blowing up in HM. The other stuff is simply the most efficient red-bars-go-up crap in the game, better than Ribbon and Breeze (lol)

Actually Ribbon is ok in certain PvE situations. Like places you know often have tight spaces... But yay breeze is still bad, but people find excuses to use it after that last change to it... lol.

Deleet · Jun 13, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Fill them up and disable the skills they can't use properly. Then set hotkeys for those skills (healing seed, heal party...) and use the manually.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 13, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantei

The only reason I'd see the point of disabling a skill is to use it for a specific purpose along the way, otherwise it'd be a pain to keep doing that.

bringing more skills is NEVER bad. if you only want a hero using 5 skills keep the other 3 disabled. but theres no reason to take them off the bar. i dont care if the three skills you put there and disable are frenzy, healsig, and mending, an empty slot is the worst thing you can possibly do with a bar.
edit: it seems like you think disabling a hero's skill is a complicated and continuous process. try shift-clicking on a skill on ur heros bar. it stays disabled till you shift click it again and the hero will only use it when u order it to

zwei2stein · Jun 13, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Shaz, is your troll detector broken?

kobey · Jun 13, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

[healing breeze][light of deliverance][gole]

This build is guuud. Do not add anymore skills, if you do, it won't work the way it is supposed to.

I get your point shantei. See the build I made after listening to ya.

The hero monk NEVER runs into energy problem, so it is guuud.

MagmaRed · Jun 13, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Knowing how to make a hero build allows you to use 8 skills, and have the ability to cover more situations. Sure, there are builds that work well with 4-5 skills. However, giving a hero some utility skills to fill in the empty slots allows for versatililty. Disable them if it is a skill they can/will use when you don't want them to, or choose better skills.

I'd rather not gimp my heroes because they like to spam.... I'd rather work with that knowledge and give them skills they can/will use appropriately.

Batou of Nine · Jun 13, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kobey

[healing breeze][light of deliverance][gole]

This build is guuud. Do not add anymore skills, if you do, it won't work the way it is supposed to.

I get your point shantei. See the build I made after listening to ya.

The hero monk NEVER runs into energy problem, so it is guuud.

Sarcasm senses are tingling! hehe

A11Eur0 · Jun 13, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

that "example build" fails because of healing ribbon. I gave my monk heroes healing ribbon when I unlocked it...immediately I ran into e-management problems. Yes, they spam it. And it's a 10e skill.

Here's my monk hero build:

HB
ethereal
dwayna's kiss
cure hex
dismiss condition
aegis
prot spirit
res chant

IF I run two monks, I change that to the standard HB build with heal party instead of aegis, and GoLE instead of prot spirit, then bring a power drain/leech sig prot monk. I never run out of energy on my monks. If I get into some nastiness with the single monk build, with mass conditions and hexes, I disable the hex/condition removal and focus on straight heals.

The Red Messenger · Jun 13, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

its true, heroes with less options will spam the skills you want more often

heroes own with interrupts, even in HM. just give em the skills you want, and fill the rest with interrupts.

[fire attunement][searing flames][glowing gaze][rodgorts invocation][glyph of lesser energy][leech signet][power drain][res sig]

Shaz · Jun 13, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Shaz, is your troll detector broken?

Possibly

, though he does seem like a genuine bad player. I don't know anymore, though I wouldn't be suprise if someone is this bad really.